[ShadowMarth]

I had a very lively debate with a fellow over IM recently about cheating. It was started with the talk of techniques that took advantage of lag in order to win. Please weigh in in any way you please. There's a bit cut off in the beginning, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

FoxIllusion10: yes, the US winners go to japan and stuff to battle worldwide

ShadowMarth03: well, whatever people say, it's about fun and skill, not cheap moves that change the gameplay

FoxIllusion10: yes and lcanceling helps improve your skill and new combos open the way for more counters, attacks, etc. fun!

ShadowMarth03: These are the types of things that, were this a PC or online game, would have been changed with patches. Effectively destroyed. Why? Because they're EXPLOITS.

FoxIllusion10: well, thats why developers try harder to prevent these on console games

FoxIllusion10: some actually rumor that HAL put them in there on purpose.....

ShadowMarth03: yeah, yet look at what happens. Cheaters look as much as they can just to find these.

ShadowMarth03: HAL labrotories or the computer HAL? ah wait... I just remembered something. They named themselves after the computer.

FoxIllusion10: HAL labratories, the same people that made kirby cavas curse

ShadowMarth03: I konw

ShadowMarth03: they named themselves after the computer, HAL 9000 from the 70's-80's sci-fi movie/book 2001: A Space Odyssey

FoxIllusion10: yet their logo is a dog nursing a couple of eggs

ShadowMarth03: Lol

ShadowMarth03: I know... it's odd

ShadowMarth03: I read an article about hal laboratories once though, and that's what they supposedly named themselves after

FoxIllusion10: yea, theyre a great team, so great that most say wavedashing and lcancel WASNT and accident

ShadowMarth03: yes... it was. They didn't have time to beta it enough to find that before the cube launch. and it was the main launch title

FoxIllusion10: ah well, the lag separates the n00bs and the winners

ShadowMarth03: You mean, ,the cheaters from the players

ShadowMarth03: Lag is somewhat a force of nature in the gaming world. Manipulating it is strictly out of the question.

FoxIllusion10: look, a way has been found, if you dont utilize people's hard work, others will and destroy you in the process

ShadowMarth03: BY CHEATING
ShadowMarth03: now that most games will be online for consoles as well, i expect them to start releasing patches that way as well. It's already started with halo 2. This will no longer be an issue.

FoxIllusion10: .....look, its the developers mistake, and if others use it and you dont use it, others will plow through you and you will have noargument besides saying that its cheating

ShadowMarth03: It doesn't matter how you rationalize it, manipulation of lag, in any form, is completely wrong.

ShadowMarth03: That's like saying you should buy a gun because other people do.

FoxIllusion10: you have a point there but still, its out and theres nothing anyone can do about it. You can choose to not "cheat" and lose but "cheat" and win. People will cheat and well, people want to win

ShadowMarth03: That's why I'm looking forward to patches for console games. As you say it, all competitive players are cheaters. That's just wrong. PC games, FPS and MMOs in particular have the idea. They constantly update with patches, clearing out all the latest tricks to manipulate the play in unintended ways.

FoxIllusion10: well, thatll start with the revoultion

ShadowMarth03: makes me glad i don't play competitively, and I just have fun with my friends. however easy they are to kill.

FoxIllusion10: and obviously, they know nothing of l canceling either

ShadowMarth03: hehe

ShadowMarth03: even if they did, it wouldn't matter

ShadowMarth03: They suck too badly

FoxIllusion10: lol

FoxIllusion10: yes, even if u know how to wavedash and l cancel, u need some skill first...

ShadowMarth03: Argh....

ShadowMarth03: you just don't get it obviously

FoxIllusion10: i do, you think its cheating because anything thats besides the action its supposed to do is wrong. Well, some people dont get that and, the best you can do is try and change their minds.

ShadowMarth03: Yeah, well like most PSP fanboys, the cheater fanboys will never relent until game developers finally get it. You never make a perfect game no matter how hard you try, so patches are the only thing you can do to uphold the integrity of the game.

FoxIllusion10: are you comparing me to a fanboy?!

ShadowMarth03: no

ShadowMarth03: well, I suppose i may be.

ShadowMarth03: Cheater fanboys... That's a horrible combination

FoxIllusion10: well, then what youre doing is killing 2 birds with one stone

FoxIllusion10: or millions with one stone

FoxIllusion10: im not the one who started this, im not the one that caused this, im just joining in because like every1, no one wants to lose everytime

ShadowMarth03: Well, when it's possible not to have to resort to cheating to compete, maybe I will.

FoxIllusion10: alright, then you better get used to being stuck on the bottom tier of competition

ShadowMarth03: Well, I don't compete.

FoxIllusion10: ah, well, i never pull these tricks on my siblings or friends anyway, they cant win either way

ShadowMarth03: Once you've established that manipulating play like that is cheating, there's no moral way out of it. It's like cheating on a test because the teacher grades on a curve and others are.

FoxIllusion10: well, the bottom line is, its the ends that justify your means. If youre looking for some fun which will never arise by losing, play it ethically. If you want to win occasionally for a chance, then you will use the forms of your opponents

FoxIllusion10: you know what they say, if u cant beat them, join em

ShadowMarth03: So basically you're saying that it's impossible to have fun losing?

FoxIllusion10: im just saying that to the typical person, losing isnt as enjoyable as winning

ShadowMarth03: Oh, but it's right there in text.

FoxIllusion10: hmm?

ShadowMarth03: "If youre looking for some fun which will never arise by losing, play it ethically"

This sentence has so much wrong with it.

FoxIllusion10: thats exxageration, if you are some maniacal person like my youngest brother, you will enjoy getting killed and will laugh at the face of shame

FoxIllusion10: ive found through my life on forums, slightly exxagerated points have a much greater impact

ShadowMarth03: Slightly exagerated? It's right there, there's no other way to interpret that.

FoxIllusion10: everyone has their own life, i cant tell if someone has a paranoid mind, im just saying, no normal person would WANT to lose under stakes

FoxIllusion10: alright, i admit that was a bad sentence, yes, people can have fun while losing

FoxIllusion10: but to the norm, one would rather win than lose

ShadowMarth03: PC gaming is a perfect example of the way it should be. For instance, Team 3D, the nationwide champs for Counter-Strike, play using teamwork, tactics, and careful shots. Not manipulating anything. Those tournaments have only top of the line computers to make sure that lag is never a factor.

FoxIllusion10: dont you agree?

ShadowMarth03: Sure, one would rather win, but that means you practice more, not resort to exploits.

FoxIllusion10: the max potential of one with the ability ti l cancel will greatly surpass one's max potential without

ShadowMarth03: So? It's cheating, that's generally the point. Why would people cheat if it didn't give them an unfair advantage?

FoxIllusion10: no one talks of it as cheating. Everyone regards it as a technical skill that you can easily access and have full knowledge of. It is like learning a new combo. or a new tip

ShadowMarth03: Well, what does it matter what they call it? It's cheating, plain and simple. You can't easily access it obviously, as you made in your earlier point,
"look, a way has been found, if you dont utilize people's hard work, others will and destroy you in the process"

A new combo or tip is wrightfully included in the game, as part of the desired gameplay. That's what separates this.

FoxIllusion10: well, its been found at others expense, who knows, they may have stumbled upon it? could it be fate?

ShadowMarth03: Oh great, fate. Yes, I'm sure heavenly influence is behind cheating.

FoxIllusion10: theyve spread their knoweldge so others like you perhaps caould counter it. Had they not, it would be unknown to all and not easily accessed and a few leet knowing of it.

FoxIllusion10: this would compromise all tourneys becouse only a few would know

FoxIllusion10: so what would happen to all that money?

ShadowMarth03: How can you counter it? The only real way is to outright change the code of the game. Unless released by the developers, that's a hack, another step in the dark.

FoxIllusion10: better that we know and expect it than rather battle on cluelessly and eventually lose and spend the entrance fee for nothing

ShadowMarth03: You can't rationalize cheating by saying that others should take the effort to stop it. If they did you would be reprimanded, banned from tournaments. For most competitive games, cheating like this would be.

FoxIllusion10: how would they know, no easy acess remember? they could take it as a glitch or a bug

FoxIllusion10: how can you be banned for something that unexplicably happened?

ShadowMarth03: Sadly though, whoever administers these tourneys looks the other way on such an obvious problem. How would they recognize it? If people start using it in competitive tourneys it would be quite obvious. People find something, then likely they immediately post it online and claim the credit.

FoxIllusion10: how bout a band, secret kept within to earn money. Wouldnt you rather everyone knoe therefoer letting everyone have an equal chance because wherther they regard the knowledge or not, thats their problem, theyve been educated previously

ShadowMarth03: What? A band? As in musical?

FoxIllusion10: like a cult, a top group where only a select few know

FoxIllusion10: a scam to earn money

ShadowMarth03: Well, I'd rather everyone know. In that case in a good world it would be stopped. Heck, if only a small group used these, it would immediately be banned.

FoxIllusion10: but how would they know though? officials may regard it as a glitch. Im positive contestents arent inclined to review the match or demand something as incredualous

ShadowMarth03: Well in a perfect world they would. If you became aware that a group had modified the consoles in their favor, would you regard that as taking the initiative, thereby regarding it fair?

FoxIllusion10: but how would you modify the consoles? in tourneys, you cant use your materials

ShadowMarth03: I don't know, it's a hypothetical analogy. Two forms of cheating, however accomplished, wouldn't you want to know, and wouldn't you want the group responsible punished?

FoxIllusion10: yes, if i was the innocent victim, i would want them punished. But being clueless to the plot, i would regard it as a developer glittch, it happens. Good game, better luck next time

ShadowMarth03: What? That makes no sense. Someone cheats. If you weren't aware of it at the time, but became aware of it later, wouldn't that piss you off? Just because no one knows doesn't make cheating fair. That's just idiotic.

FoxIllusion10: yes, thats what im saying, wouldnt you rather have everyone know so ud be aware and ud expect it than just a couple people know?

ShadowMarth03: Yes, and I said so when you first asked that!

FoxIllusion10: how do u force every1 to stop?

FoxIllusion10: it might as well be a part of the game now

ShadowMarth03: With patches, and tournament regulations

ShadowMarth03: It will not exist in the next generation.

FoxIllusion10: hmm...thats what were hoping for

ShadowMarth03: Plain and simple, it's cheating, and as such it will eventually be stopped. Take chess tournaments. So many precautions are taken to make sure it's fair.

FoxIllusion10: its these little exploits that make a ame fun to play, you always look on the internet and find glitches to try em out and experience it

ShadowMarth03: Noise and distractions, effectively the lag of the chess tournaments, are carefully regulated. The only noise you should ever hear, and less than this in the big tournaments, is Check Mate.

FoxIllusion10: youre gonna want to find an advantage and hold onto it

FoxIllusion10: thats why we look for strategies in the first place!

ShadowMarth03: I do not. Cheating is not fun, and does not make it such. Gameplay does. Is SSBM a fun game because of exploits? No, it's fun because it's a well designed game. I don't look on the internet for anything like that. I believe strictly that all forms of walkthroughs are cheating, as you are suppose to find out all the secrets yourself, it's part of the game.

ShadowMarth03: Strategies are one thing, and are unrelated to cheating.

FoxIllusion10: thats why there are topics on glitches and stuff. Its fun to see developer mitakes. These impell developers to take better care with their games. Its good for the gaming industry

ShadowMarth03: Which do you think is more fun? Playing against your friend, regardless of winning/losing, or losing to a cheater you don't know in a tournament.

FoxIllusion10: id have to choose the former but what im saying is that if u dont use the tactics, then you will meet the latter.

ShadowMarth03: Tactics? First the strategy part, and now you're comparing cheating to tactics?!? You are a cheating fanboy.

FoxIllusion10: alright, thats it, if nintendo officials truly saw it as cheating and not as a part of the game, they would regulate tourneys!! no one wants to lose their money on nothing. but for some reason, they dont! i think they are smarter and have more knowledge and have more in depth perception than a random kid in the us

ShadowMarth03: You think that the developers are coaching these tourneys? Heck no. If they were I think they'd be pretty mad about you abusing their mistakes.

FoxIllusion10: why do you think they LET people start tourneys and pay money to get in!?

ShadowMarth03: As I've said before, in MMOs, FPS games, and generally any game played online on the PC these things are strictly coached to ensure that this doesnt' happen. For money.

FoxIllusion10: theyre under permisiion

FoxIllusion10: with all of the tourneys in the world, youd think nintendo with its multibillion dollar copany would realize it!

ShadowMarth03: What. That some idiots in a tournament they don't supervise are cheating?

ShadowMarth03: You think they don't have better things to do? They have four platforms to work on, dozens of games, ect

FoxIllusion10: yes, with all of the foruma and chatsrooms, theyd know. I think with the thousand dollar exchanges going on, theyd take part! tourneys have been going on since the games been out for Gods sake

FoxIllusion10: for example, companies took the p2p debate to court.

ShadowMarth03: Look, long story short, in the gaming world these SSBM tournaments are an exception. Cheating of this variety would never be allowed elsewhere, and you have to wonder why. These are not gameplay elements, they are mistakes. In a perfect world they would be fixed, but there's no online, hence no patching is possible. I need to go to bed.

FoxIllusion10: they dont want somekind of illegal money exchange

FoxIllusion10: fine, i dont justify youcalling me a cheating fanboy however.

FoxIllusion10: ur literally calling millions cheating fanboys

ShadowMarth03: What? Here you are avidly defending what we have already established as cheating without changing your view, yet constantly changing your reasoning, and you don't accept that you're a cheating fanboy?

ShadowMarth03: And yes, I am

FoxIllusion10: you cant face reality, thats the problem

FoxIllusion10: yes, the whol,e world cheats!

ShadowMarth03: Just because millions are cheating fanboys doesn't make it right. That's an age old truth.

ShadowMarth03: More of your "slight exageration"?

FoxIllusion10: for all you know, your parents could be cheating taxes

ShadowMarth03: It's possible, and that would be wrong. Of course, what's the point?

FoxIllusion10: its wrong but we live in a world with faults so we should DEAL WITHIT!!

ShadowMarth03: Simply the word cheating implys that it is morally wrong. How can you defend it?

FoxIllusion10: well, here we are, we wouldnt be here if there was no cheating

ShadowMarth03: What?

FoxIllusion10: some companies wouldnt exist without others cheating them out of buisness

FoxIllusion10: i meant it the other way around, sry

ShadowMarth03: True, but that's why there's regulations, so that it occurs less and less often until it can be stopped altogether.

FoxIllusion10: well, we all consider it to be a part of the game, we all use it

ShadowMarth03: But it's not. As I said, you and your cheating comrades are an exception.

ShadowMarth03: I have an idea. How about I go to bed, and tomorrow we conclude this, with the full addition of an entire group of likeminded gamers. I'll post the last hour of debate, and we will see what they think.

FoxIllusion10: cheating? how will you ever know? back to the beginning, was it put there purposelly for us to find out? do u know?

FoxIllusion10: fine

FoxIllusion10: and on the SSBM forum as well

ShadowMarth03: Touchds debate board. I'll post tomorrow.

FoxIllusion10: good night

FoxIllusion10: morning*


If you've actually taken the time to read the entire argument, I commend your patience, and ask for your honest opinion.