News Flash

[Pilot_51]

Actually that info that he proven wrong wasn't from any videos, it was from pure memory, probably right after the event when they confirmed 1 death or whatever from within the building, and I wasn't counting the plane. Regardless of how many people died, since it doesn't really prove anything between conspiracy and terrorist act. As I've been trying to emphasize, you still need to tell me how the damage to the buildings reflect the story as told in contrast to the conspiracy theories.

I should probably note that I respect the many innocent lives lost and hurt on 9/11, and the heroic actions of many people. The reason I'm trying to be sure of what really happened is because murderers should never get away with murder. It's true that the terrorists, probably all of the ones targeted by the government, have killed people and should be punished, but that doesn't take the deserved punishment off of any other murderers. The point is simply to confirm whether or not anyone in the government was involved in killing innocent people on purpose on 9/11, or even if the government is lying about any of the facts. So far I've still seen more evidence pointing to conspiracy, while everything else against conspiracy is mostly what the government and news tells us, which I've found very untrustworthy many times before and after 9/11.

[ShadowMarth]

You were citing the lack of deaths as proof that the military had foreknowledge. I blew that out of the water without hardly trying. Retort correctly, please. Don't just act like it's a meaningless clerical mistake. That's downright insulting.

As for the reason the towers fell? A PLANE CRASHED INTO THEM! PLANES! PLURAL! TWO OF THEM!

[Pilot_51]

Evidence is not proof, get it right. I never said any of this was proof and I don't believe any of it is proof (it's sort of like creation vs. evolution, all evidence and no proof outside of those directly involved). So far the only "evidence" you blew out of the water was the stuff that came from my own flawed memory of the incident, you haven't done anything to put as much as a dent in what the conspiracy theorists think.

I never said anything about the two towers being evidence, the evidence on those are too weak for me to go into a debate on them. I've actually found myself being critical about many of the conspiracy theories involving the towers. If you really want to convince me that the planes crashing into the towers caused them to fall, you need to go into details such as the actual burning temperature of the jet fuel and melting point of the steel and all that stuff you probably have no clue about. Your explanation about the planes causing them to fall would really only be obvious if they caused such a violent hit that the towers tipped over right when it happened. As far as the towers go, I'm stuck in the middle between believing the story and the theories. It probably wouldn't take a whole lot to convince me either way, but the rest of the stuff is where the evidence hits hard and I want to see if anything hits back.

What I want you to point out, by intelligent analysis, is how WTC7 fell and how 2 planes literally disappeared with nearly no trace of a plane aside from small scraps and one of them leaving meager damage on a building it flew into. I don't want any "because it was on fire" or any of that, I want you to try to convince me that it wasn't really a conspiracy, which basically means you'll probably need to get as detailed as I have been. If you know of a 1 or 2 hour video that defuncts the conspiracy theories, show me and I'll watch it.
I want to know the truth so that I could better support it, and by sparking an intelligently detailed debate, that might be achieved.

[ShadowMarth]

Playing with definitions doesn't answer anything. If you can't tell, I'm not getting overmuch stressed over this particular argument, because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Also, "without leaving much evidence?" You can't fake that **** man. Planes flew into buildings in one of the most populated areas in the world. If you don't recall, there was a massive pile of debris. You go crawling through it for plane parts? I visited ground zero myself several months after 9-11. They were still cleaning the debris up. That's what happens when two giant towers collapse.

Also, "because there was a fire" is a perfectly good reason for destruction of evidence. It was a big ****ing fire. They were two big ****ing buildings. And the planes hit the towers at very high speeds. The planes wouldn't stay in large peices in such a crash. And what the hell are you suggesting by your personal perceived lack of plane debris? That the planes that thousands of people saw in one of the most populated areas of the world DIDN'T EXIST? You can't just say when your facts are wrong it's due to your own ignorance, and then act like that somehow reinforces your argument.

Also, there are sites dedicated to debunking conspiracy theories. But believe me, people spend much more time attempting to rationalize crazy theories than attempting to refute them. Because most of the time people are smart enough to see when this **** is idiotic.

NIST's Investigation of the Sept. 11 World Trade Center Disaster - Frequently Asked Questions
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide

[Pilot_51]

It sounds to me like you're getting pretty stressed about it with all those stars and stuff. I'll give it to you, you're actually making some sense and putting detail into your argument. I wouldn't call these conspiracy theories anywhere near idiotic (sort of obvious considering I've been supporting them so far), but most of them such as aliens visiting Earth and the government hiding it, I find very idiotic; it's far more likely just top secret projects for future aircraft technology developed solely by humans.

Tell you what, I'll do my own research with the links provided by you and Fatvod and do my best to compare them with an unbiased view. You'll probably see a very detailed comparison and final verdict in a couple days. After that, if you want (I doubt it), we could dissect other conspiracy theories, but I doubt any would be nearly as heated as this one since I'm pretty sure I hold a common opinion on the others.
For now, I've been awake a good 36 hours (again, for like the 3rd time this month), so I really need to get some sleep.

[Fatvod]

I Personally believe......oops this isnt the miss teen america pageant?

Just kidding.

I have put together this list because I have seen one too many intelligent people argue to me that these videos are true and that america is corrupt and blah blah blah. I really didnt like sending them the same links over and over so I just saved it and this is it.

A list of links that show why you are a fool for being drawn in by the scary music and college kids who put this crap together and thinking its all fact.

Before you click on any of these just read this. Rosie odonnell believes what these videos have to say. If that doesnt make you change ure opinion then move to the links.

Still dont believe that you have been duped? then be my guest flock to all the noob forums and chat about how "evil teh governments is lawl" just remember that you suck.

Zeitgeist debunked - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums <---- f0r all u zeitgeist noobs

911 Links - World Trade Center Building 7Â*and the Lies of the "9/11 Truth Movement" <------ great page

9/11 Deniers Speak - Exposing the 9/11 "Truth" Movement and Loose Change

<---- take the time to watch it and have it tone down the noobosity

Screw Loose Change <--- great site with a lot of links it is a large community of 911 debunkers

Official Website for the Titanic truth movement. <---- just awesome

There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons. <---- just awesome

Digg - 9/11 Debate: Loose Change vs. Popular Mechanics <--- college kid fools go suck on a 8===D

xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe <----best one of all and I dont want you to instantly dismiss it because its a cartoon its very true and I think its the most important one of all also. XKCD NEVER LIES.

Debunking 9/11 Myths - Popular Mechanics <--- buy it if u still thinks "zomg totally teh governments taht did teh 911!"

Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition Homepage <----- very complete


DO not try to argue to me that I dont have an open mind its just that yours is too stupid.

~~~~Fatvod~~~~


EDITS: sorry I did not read the last post and wasnt aware it was pilot and I just wanna tell you that this isnt directed towards you its directed to the whole TDS community. And if you dont care and dont want to read it please just read the XKCD one thats the only one I really want you to as it has the most meaning in my opinion. REMEMBER the expression "take dat **** with a grain of salt fool"

[Pilot_51]

Well, now I know that the WTC7 conspiracy isn't as clear-cut as I thought. Now it seems to be a perfect balance between conspiracy and not, neither seem to have proof and most of it (on both sides, mostly the anti-conspiracy) is just picking at peoples opinions and choice of words rather than actual scientific evidence. On the conspiracy side, it looks like the worst of it is getting the science wrong or twisting it.
With that said, I don't know what I believe in regard to what really happened on 9/11. I do believe Muslim terrorists are involved one way or another and I do believe the government can't be trusted to care for this country to the best of their ability and in some cases they use their power to cause harm for their own advantage.

I've basically realized why the debate is so endless, because the evidence isn't as clear as I thought on either side and the debate has morphed into pointless finger pointing at what people say.
With that, I'm smart enough to realize I'm not smart enough to make a difference in a debate I'm not sure of anymore myself. So I'm not going to continue debating and just hope the real truth eventually comes out on top (but I have doubts it would ever end).
I still think most people (not all) who believe one way or another don't have a full understanding and open mind about it; just like I was when I was supporting the conspiracy theory, I had the open mind but I didn't have as much of an understanding on the non-conspiracy side.

BTW I don't think that XKCD comic has any real worthy meaning to it, it's just stereotypical. Just because someone believes one conspiracy theory doesn't mean he blindly believes them all, in fact I think a huge majority of people who believe a conspiracy theory only believe one with an intelligent perspective.

And stop that "your stupid" crap, it just makes you look like one of those closed mind fanboys that don't even use facts to support their opinion. I'm not saying you don't have an open mind, I'm just saying it's stupid to call people stupid, especially without supporting evidence, and in any case it's mean and intentionally so.

[Wraith]

Stupid peopel do stupid things