Snaking and Piracy

[leafgreen386]

Originally Posted by the wavedashing thread

FoxIllusion10: alright, then you better get used to being stuck on the bottom tier of competition

ShadowMarth03: Well, I don't compete.

You're proving my points over and over again. Remember, you're the one who told us to look at old topics.

And sm, I would think you were less of an idiot if you actually replied inteligibly to my posts. Ignoring them makes you no more mature or correct about the issue than a six year old on crack.

[ShadowMarth]

Thanks for that. I'll make sure to listen especially well to your future insults.

And I don't see at all what that quote proves, other than exactly what it says... I don't go to tournaments. I just play with friends, and I play fair.

[leafgreen386]

Hey, I'm only going to use the personal attacks until you read my posts. You won't listen to anything else, so I figure may as well give it a shot.

It proves that you know nothing of competitive play. It proves you're ignorant to what competitive play is about. That's what that proves.

These are the two posts of mine which have actually intelligent arguments in them that you have completely ignored:

http://www.touchds.com/forums/73464-post43.html
http://www.touchds.com/forums/73631-post66.html

I'm getting really sick and tired of you not even acknowledging their existance, of not even trying to counter them, while still claiming that you're right.

[ShadowMarth]

I've heard people talking about this debug crap, and if it's true, so be it. But no one has ever done anything but claim it to be true to me... And I gave up the Wavedashing argument. You people just keep bringing it back. Just leave me alone. I'll quit arguing when you all stop making personal attacks. That's the only reason I've been responding since I said I was done. Heck, I haven't even really been arguing... Just making remarks because of your insults. Anyone who's read my past arguments can tell that I'm half-assing it.

And, one more time, normally I would respond to your posts in depth, but guess what. I DON'T GIVE A **** RIGHT NOW.

In fact, you win. Not that I think you're right, but I'm just so damn tired of the argument...

[nmaster64]

I called in backup. Sit down ShadowMarth, this is going to hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt me.

Originally Posted by Buzz

You cannot define cheating relative to the mechanics of a game. Wavedashing would only be cheating if tournament rules explicitly outlawed them. However, outside of a tournament environment, technically nothing is cheating because there are no rules except for what the game physically allows. Sure, we can argue all day long what stuff is considered 'cheap', but cheating is a clear cut issue.

Originally Posted by kasumi

It may sound like I'm all for wavedashing because I can do it and against snaking because I can't. But that's not really all that true. I was never against wavedashing even when I couldn't do it. And I find wavedashing really fun to do. Snaking... not so much. It's not... fun to me. And that's what games should be about. But... neither one is cheating.

Originally Posted by GenoBlast

err, how is wavedashing cheating? its not like when you wave dash you automaticlly win, or something crazy like that. Its just an advanced tactic that can help improve your game.

Now I guess I can soooort of see how you could consiter wavedashing cheating but there is no way in hell L-canceling is cheating. I mean, It was in smash 64 and they kept it for a reason. the programmers knew what they were doing when they put it in the game so I have no clue where you friend is coming from with that.

Originally Posted by Itakio

The mods on the official Nintendo server don't have anything against advanced techs

Originally Posted by Dazwa

In debug mode, when a player air-dodges into the group, causing the slide we all know and love, the action the character is taking shown at the top of the screen is "wave land special" or something to that extent. Although the action itself was intended by developers, the way it's used today is most likely something they didn't intend. That doesn't mean at all that we can't use it.

Originally Posted by Nwordtim

...even jesus wavedashes...

Originally Posted by cort

There's some term in the development mode of the game that refers to wavedashing, calling it the super dash or something like that. It was intended.

Originally Posted by 56k

wavedashing is allowed at Professional smash tournaments. They wouldn't allow cheating at a professional tournament, right?

Originally Posted by phanna

1) Wavedashing really isn't that hard to do once you learn it
2) It doesn't offer a massive tactical advantage, it just adds to the arsenal of an experienced player, and also to the complaints of whiney losers
3) It's not a 'hack' of any sort, it's emergent behavior -- people debate 'till they are blue in the face about it being a glitch, but they developers released the game well aware of it, and in light of the fact that it was just the obvious conclusion of air dodging, momentum, and physics.

Originally Posted by element_of_fire

its ok...winning isn't that fun anyways
King_Malice: I agree whole-heartidly.

Originally Posted by controlfreak7

Here i have a better version of what he said:

"its cheating"
"its cheating"
"i have no reason"
"i can't do it"
"I want my mommy"
"what I can't do and what I think is cheating is cheating"

...just a cry baby, he doesn't even say why its cheating he just says it and tries to sound like he has a reason, but he doesn't, he only tries to sound intelligent.

rifle, that if you do it the right way you can kill in one hit with a headshot and melee. Thats a glitch and they don't ban it in You should also tell him there is a glitch in Halo 2 with the battlehalo 2 tourneys I believe.

"but they developers released the game well aware of it"

Not to mention if it they didn't want it in there, they could have taken it out in v 1.2

Originally Posted by usea

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating
http://m-w.com/dictionary/cheating

Under what definition is wavedash cheating?

Originally Posted by commonyoshi

If you're against WDing since it wasn't intended to be used in such a manner, you're going to have to go against ALL things developers didn't want in their games.

Originally Posted by Jedi (Marth)

Consider...

Jumping is part of the game's intended mechanics.
Positioning your character while airborn is an intended mechanic.
Obviously, the Air Dodge is an intended mechanic.

Suppose you Air Dodge sideways into the pillar on Hyrule stage, surely you shouldn't be allowed to pass through it? Of course not, it shouldn't be penetrable. Same with the stage beneath you. Given these limitations, it only makes sense that in the event a character jumps from the surface of a stage and at the precise moment they are no longer grounded they perform a directional aerial dodge at an angle colliding with the stage that they are forced to stay above the surface dodged against and displaced an amount of distance which reflects the length of an aerial dodge as well as the angle at which they contact that surface.

I would also like to point out that according to webster.com 'cheating' is: To violate rules dishonestly. - Any rule prohibiting WaveDashing doesn't exist to be violated, and the only way to dishonestly go about a WaveDash is to do so knowing that another player doesn't know what it is or how to do it, which isn't possible in a tournament setting seeing as how on these boards alone it's a well known maneuver.

Going back to previously mentioned facts such as: WaveDashing in itself exists within the mechanics of the game without having to alter it in any way to do so - saying something as naive as an exploit is a type of cheat is balogna; You can easily use Marth's speed and agility to *exploit* one of say Bowser's or Donkey Kong's weaknesses. To recognize a tactical advantage and capitalize on it to your benefit in order to win a contest of skill could be considered exploiting an immediate advantage to gain the upper hand - how's that cheating?

Babble, babble, babble... ok I'm done.

Get it yet?

Originally Posted by homsar

Ha, this made me laugh so hard. Just ignore the idiot, your clearly a better smasher and person.

Originally Posted by Heavy Vulcan

I think he = pwnt. GG, NM

[impalednazarene666]

i pirate music but thats it becuase i cant afford to buy cds lol

[ShadowMarth]

I believe I'll quote myself here.

For GOD'S SAKE GIVE IT UP! Wavedashing has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS! You're saying that I'm a fanboy for wanting fair play? Oh, so I'm a "Fairness Fanboy", what a loss. Screw it, I'm done here unless you're willing to get back to the issue at hand. I've told you several times to not involve the wavedashing debate, and you've.... attacked me. So, I'll let it die.

[nmaster64]

You. Got. Ownd.

Sure, go ahead now and cry to your mommy because the mean people (aka "the world") disagrees with you...

Originally Posted by SM

Heck, nmaster said flat out that he doesn't snake. But then he still calls it a technique... Hypocracy?

That's called "rationality" in our world. It's where, just because you don't necessarily like, agree with, or use somebody's elses tactics, you can still accept them as legitimate. I don't snake and I don't wavedash. However, that hardly means I'm going to call them cheating. If I was somehow unable to do them, I might think otherwise, but the fact I can gain either skill with practice makes 'em fair.

I can agree to the point wavedashing and especially snaking unbalance the games, but this is still far from the definition of "cheating". Cheating implys the player is doing something he shouldn't be, but you can't blame the player for using available techniques to win, that's part of gaming. If you don't like it, blame the developers and hope they fix it in the sequel, but don't insult the players because your not a fan of the technique...

Call it cheap, call it unfair, call it a glitch or an unbalance in the game or whatever. However, don't call people who are simply using all the skills the game allows "cheaters".